Did you miss the 2009 smARTist Telesummit?

Artists who attended the 2009 smARTist Telesummit learned specific ways to succeed even in today’s challenging market … and now YOU CAN TOO!

Because today, more than ever, the world needs your vision.

Learn how to move your art career to the next level, so you can make an honest living doing what you love. It’s time to...

Get Clear. Make a Plan. Sell More Art.

And, yes, I do know how much gets in your way.

Because it’s the same day-to-day, survival stuff that gets in mine.

But you are the artist. You carry the banner of creativity high for the rest of us. When you are successful, your art becomes our mirror. It reflects the creative longing we all feel and desire.

Your art raises the important questions. It heals. The very diversity of its beauty calms our fears.

When you put your work in the world, shining, we all have another chance to see the deeper truth about who we are, and our collective, creative spirit.


And then, there’s all that other *stuff* to figure out.

Do you go after a gallery, sell it yourself, or both? Who is your ideal audience, and how do you find them? Which marketing strategies work, and which ones just drain your bank account?

How do you assess if your artwork can sell in this economy, and where? It all changes so fast… what Internet tips and tricks am I missing that can sell my art?

Some *stuff* is more critical than other stuff.
Go ahead, select which ‘one’ of these slows you down the most:

    • Lack of confidence
    • Fear
    • Illness, or caring for a loved one
    • Holding down another job

Let’s face it, the Internet has changed so much about the way artists connect with their collectors. But, when you don’t have the most critical, current information (I mean, it all changes so fast!), you waste time and money doing the wrong things. You lose, your art loses, your career stalls.

It does not have to be this way, because you have a choice.

When you don’t have a vision and a plan for your art, it’s like getting into your car and driving around for the heck of it. You spend a lot of time getting nowhere in particular. And whosh, ten years slip by.

It does not have to be this way, because you have a choice.

For 7 energizing days, the smARTist® Telesummit art-career experts and successful artists presented dynamite sessions with detailed handouts.

Now you can hear all those sessions, and you can define your vision and a create plan, a plan that shows you exactly where your art career is going next — even in these challenging times.

When you don’t have the most critical, current information (I mean, it all changes so fast!), you waste time and money doing the wrong things. You lose, your art loses, your career stalls.

It does not have to be this way, because you have a choice.

For 7 energizing days, the smARTist® Telesummit art-career experts and successful artists presented dynamite sessions with detailed handouts.

Now you can hear all those sessions, and you can define your vision and a create plan, a plan that shows you exactly where your art career is going next — even in these challenging times.

All art has an audience. But this is little comfort when you aren’t sure who your audience is, or how to find them.

It does not have to be this way, because you have a choice.

For 7 energizing days, the smARTist® Telesummit art-career experts and successful artists presented dynamite sessions with detailed handouts.

Now you can hear all those sessions, and you can define your vision and a create plan, a plan that shows you exactly where your art career is going next — even in these challenging times.

Before the Internet, marketing and promoting art was already challenging. Now there are even more constantly changing ways. It can be so frustrating, even a bit maddening.

But it does not have to be this way, because you have a choice.

For 7 energizing days, the smARTist® Telesummit art-career experts and successful artists presented dynamite sessions with detailed handouts.

Now you can hear all those sessions, and you can define your vision and a create plan, a plan that shows you exactly where your art career is going next — even in these challenging times.

When the creative muse lands on your shoulder, it’s great. But let’s face it: you have a life. And it’s a real struggle to stay motivated, and on top of your game when the demands on your time seem endless.

It does not have to be this way, because you have a choice.

For 7 energizing days, the smARTist® Telesummit art-career experts and successful artists presented dynamite sessions with detailed handouts.

Now you can hear all those sessions, and you can define your vision and a create plan, a plan that shows you exactly where your art career is going next — even in these challenging times.

Any number of things can derail your commitment to your art: personal illness, lack of confidence, caring for a loved one who is aging or ill, various fears, the demands of another job.

But your art does not have to be pushed aside, because now you have a choice.

For 7 energizing days, the smARTist® Telesummit art-career experts and successful artists presented dynamite sessions with detailed handouts.

Now you can hear all those sessions, and you can define your vision and a create plan, a plan that shows you exactly where your art career is going next — even in these challenging times.

Ariane Goodwin

Ariane Goodwin, Ed.D, Your Host & Creator of smARTist

Hi, I’m Ariane, and I have something important
to share with you.

For 7 energizing days, the smARTist® Telesummit art-career experts and successful artists presented dynamite sessions with detailed handouts.

Now you can hear the same exact sessions to help you get clear about your vision, create a plan that shows you exactly how to take your art career to the next level — even in these challenging times.

The live event is over, but you can still have access to ALL the information — and it’s a ton!

  • Recordings for all 7 days, including 2 MasterMind panel discussions and 11 keynote sessions
  • 11 PDF handouts from the speakers — all the materials from each and every session

Wouldn’t it be great to be a successful artist at any career level?

…if only you had the missing pieces most vital to your success puzzle?

I was a complete skeptic…

John Nordell

Believe me, at first I was a complete skeptic about the value of the smARTist Telesummit. But there have been so many changes in my art career since attending last year! One change is about the material that I teach my photography students. I have used the ideas, and shown the websites, of at least 5 smARTist speakers. On my own website, instead of a "contact" button, the button says, "Join the mailing list". I spent some time in NYC last summer investigating the gallery scene and realized that I am an image generator, not a marketer, schmoozer, etc. This insight combined with the talk of corporate art dealers from smARTist 2008, led me to my current contract negotiations with a major corporate art player. I could go on and on, from Duboff outlining the origin of copyright law in the Constitution to Maisel's Ten Zen seconds. The depth and breath of smARTist 2008 was astonishing. And… I just sent you a check today for the 2009 Telesummit.

Sandy Sandy

On my three main websites, I'm getting 600 sessions and 8,000 hits on average a day! WOW, and I owe a lot of that to what I learned from the smARTist® Telesummit.

Yes, I want to take my art career to the next level

Okay, so you’ve set goals, made plans, taken action…
…but things haven’t worked out as you hoped.

Not so surprising.

You need the right information. Competent support. The right order of execution. Then your goals, plans, and actions will bear juicy, mouth-watering fruit.

Many of the letters that come my way are from artists
trying to make the transition from amateur to professional…

Professionals, it seems, are people gifted with an
extreme willingness to buckle down.

They access books, mentors, workshops, and other
professionals to learn the standards required.

Your smARTist® Telesummit pushed me
and encouraged me to make important changes…

Photo of Dianne Mattar

First, I changed things on the website that were suggested, and now I have a young women who comes weekly to help with my art business. I also teamed up with 3 other artists for support and accountability as I move my career forward.

I have several degrees, and I’ve taught 7-year olds to graduate students, so I appreciate your clear presentation of the material. I also appreciate how you share what you know. You have touched many with this conference. Thank you. Thank you.

Tell me, which one of these best describes your art career level?

Select one:

At any career level, being an artist is extraordinary. How do you do it? Has it been easy? Hard?

Do you have the right information, or are you just persistent and determined?

I’m betting your climb is satisfying, and often steep. And that every day you wonder if there isn’t something that could make it all just a little bit easier and more fruitful.

As an emerging artist, you are especially challenged with putting your work in front of the right audience.

Marketing and promoting just feels so different from your world of creating. Trying to sell your art is like you’ve crossed over into an alien country with a foreign language.

But it does not have to be this way. Look at what this artist told us after the last smARTist® Telesummit.

Not having done much marketing in the past,
what you provided was invaluable…

Photo of Mickey Baxter

I listened to the first session until 1 AM Sunday evening—WOW, what a wealth of information!

Already I’m setting my goals, freeing up time to work in my studio, and doing a website makeover based on this information from smARTist®.

I had a pretty firm foundation for what I wanted to do, but wasn't sure where to start. With the information from this telesummit, I now have direction and things I’m excited to pursue. I cannot thank you and your speakers enough for my new beginnings.

Not having done much marketing in the past, what you provided was invaluable.

It's hard to imagine how the telesummit could possibly get better, but I have no doubt you will make it happen.

As a mid-career artist, you are to be congratulated. You obviously have figured out enough to get this far. And you aren’t one to turn your back on new information that can help you get even further.

I’m betting you have a lot in common with Phyllis Tarlow, who attended both 2007 & 2008 smARTist® Telesummits.

Take a look at what she told us.

smARTist® has given me both the guidance and
concrete steps I needed to move ahead…

Photo of Phyllis Tarlow

Great going, Ariane! The first day's panel this year was terrific! And I didn't even think that was the part of the telesummit I would be interested in. I'm so glad that I signed up again.

Even though I’ve worked as a commercial artist, illustrator and portrait artist, the fine art market was not as clear to me. But smARTist® has given me both the guidance and concrete steps I needed to move ahead.

After smARTist® 2007, I made huge strides, taking very practical and concrete steps to shape my career. Now with smARTist® 2008, and Mark Silver and Eric Maisel’s very helpful presentations, I realize the parts of myself that might be holding me back and slowing me down.

After being a part of smARTist® 2008, I’m looking forward to building on the successes I've already accomplished from the smARTist® 2007 information!

I'm so glad it's possible to listen over and over again to this material, whenever you want to refresh your mind about what was said.

It takes patience and perseverance to make a go of selling fine art paintings, but now I have a support system in place that didn't exist two years ago. And that makes an enormous difference!

As an established artist, you are nothing but amazing. How did you do it? Was it easy? Hard?

Did you have the right information all along, or were you unusually persistent and determined.

I’m betting it was a hard climb. And that every day you wonder if there isn’t something that could make it all just a little bit easier and more fruitful.

I’m betting you have some things in common with Ron Rosenstock, a well established artist.

Months later and I still listen…

Photo of Ron Rosenstock

I've been an exhibiting/publishing photographer for 40 years, and the smARTist® program was inspiring.

Months later and I still listen to the CD's when driving and flying.

What if you could actually save 10 years of struggling, at any career level?

Until one artist actually said this to me, I would never have made such an outrageous claim for the smARTist® Telesummit.

So I was pretty surprised to find this in my inbox.

Here, Shirley can speak for herself.

Yes, I want to take my art career to the next level

I challenged speakers at this year’s smARTist® Telesummit to open the floodgates…

…to give you ideas framed for success that are

  • Easy to grasp, but need your committed effort to pull off
  • Simple to implement, but not simplistic
  • Highly profitable, but only when you take actions that are proven to work

Here are just *some* of the new topics covered in this telesummit:

  • How you can take advantage of the hottest, new online marketing strategy, even if you’ve never heard of Web 2.0
  • What you must know about selling your work in a corporate setting—so you don’t blow it
  • How you can develop an art career vision, and business strategies, founded on your deepest values
  • 75% of US adults can be now found in social media—isn’t it time you tapped into this gold mine?
  • What common mistakes you need to avoid when you put together your portfolio—or look like an amateur
  • How to identify your most likely art buyers—so you can reach more of them and build a following
  • How to find corporations who want your art
  • Why Facebook doesn’t have much to do with class reunions, and everything to do with selling your art
  • How to effectively negotiate contracts with corporations—or risk losing part of your sweet deal
  • Why serious life and death crises can paralyze creativity, and how to keep the juices flowing
  • Which tax deductions you can legally take as an artist—and which ones you’ve been missing out on
  • How to make your art career sizzle with online tricks you need to know
  • How to find a market for your art that fits who you are as a person and an artist
  • Which inner blocks (fears, self criticism, guilt, pain) stop you from fulfilling your dreams—and how to win them over with simple techniques
  • How a clear vision for your art gives you guidelines for making difficult decisions with peace and strength
  • How to prioritize and develop the right promotional materials—for the right audience
  • Why “tweeting” should be at the top of your list— or you miss out on a ready-made audience of potential art buyers
  • How to follow up with potential buyers without fumbling the ball or falling over fear
  • And so much more, I guarantee you don’t want to just read about it. You want to hear it all.

… and you CAN! In this Complete Audio Package you’ll get 13 MP3s with every single panel discussion and every single keynote session, plus each and every PDF handout.

That’s 2 MasterMind panels, 11 sessions, and 11 detailed, practical handouts personally prepared by each Keynote Speaker at the conference.

You can listen on your schedule, where you’re most comfortable — at the gym, in your car, in your studio, working in the garden — wherever suits your mood and your need.

It’s your own immersion course in everything you need to know about getting your art successfully in the world.

…in this financial climate…

Photo of Robert Girandola

I can't believe the people you collected! I can’t believe the value! You know, if anyone is serious about trying to make it as an artist — particularly in this financial climate — it seems to me they've got to get the information you are offering or they're just swimming in a storm — you and your crew are the lighthouse!

This is the year. This is your year.

You. Your art. You both deserve nothing less than every chance to be as successful as you want.

A human mind, once stretched to a new idea,
never returns to its fomer dimensions.

Significant ‘aha’ moments

Photo of Amy A. Crawley

I’ve been running my art business for nearly five years, and without a business plan.

During the smARTist® Telesummit, I had significant ‘aha’ moments.

First, I was motivated to write a business plan. Second, I separated my art line into two separate entities: one for my wholesale, functional art, and the other for my fine art. I also started a weekly post on my blog about business issues for artists.

Yes, I'd like to get this material!

What do I get?

The smARTist® Telesummit 2009

  • 7 Days Worth of Professional Keynote Presentations on a range of critical Art Career strategies by 11 Experts and successful Artists, including two Master Mind Panels where participants picked their brains!

  • MP3 Recordings of all 13 Professional Art-Career Sessions. A complete development conference in the comfort of your home, studio, or wherever you choose to listen: 2 days of Master Mind Panel Discussions, in which the speakers discussed attendees’ questions and stories. (You get multiple points of view on a single issue.) Then 11 Keynote Presentations that were delivered over 5 more days, covering the widest range of art career topics anywhere online or off.

    Every time you listen, you’ll find new nuggets of information and ideas that will help you advance your art business to ever-higher levels of success.

  • PDF copies of all handouts. Detailed how-to, step-by-step, written by artists for artists, with practical ideas to advance your marketing and your career to new heights.

With the Premier Package you also get Written Transcripts of all 13 sessions. Print. Read. Highlight. Each of the sessions will come to you as a PDF to read & learn—as you have time.

I know I’ll be listening to these as
my husband & I cruise down the highway…

I just received the most wonderful package in the mail. It was the entire smARTist® recordings beautifully packaged as a group in CD format! I no longer recall if this was included as part of the online, live event, Platinum Package I bought, but it’s here and I’m lovin’ it.

I am about to take a two-day car trip this weekend from Boston to Philly and back—and I know I’ll be listening to these as my husband and I cruise down the highway. Thank you so much!

Yes, I'd like to get this material!

And there’s no need to spend $2750 (or more) to get access to art-career experts who can help you maximize your art sales.

I know the balancing act of most artists’ budgets.

That’s why I persuaded our mastery-level experts to come together for the smARTist® Telesummit 2009 — so you can access their wealth of wisdom at a price you can afford.

Think about it for a minute.

Just one session with each of these experts, at a consulting rate of $250 pr hr (and that’s low ball for some of these speakers who command $500 and up), would cost thousands more than this entire package costs. You get everyone for the price of just one private consulting session — AND you get to listen to it as many times as you want!

Hard to believe… but the entire package of recordings from the whole 7-day TeleSummit with 11 experts costs less than most 2-day workshops with one facilitator.

It’s the Big Picture art-career advice you won’t find anywhere else.

And it’s tailor-made for any discipline or craft: 2-dimensional, 3-dimensional, Multi-media, or Digital.

And you can listen over and over and over again!

Let’s face it, you can spend all you want on art supplies, but if you aren’t supplying your career too, then your vision will never get in front of the people who need to see it.

And if they can’t see it, then they can’t buy it.

But it doesn’t have to be this way.

It’s just a simple shift of commitment: to move your art career to the next level — starting today.

REALLY today, because as soon as you purchase the package, you’ll get the link to start downloading the audio sessions, transcripts, and handouts. No waiting for the post office to deliver! You can instantly burn your own CDs, or copy the audio files to your MP3 player, and start learning what you need to know NOW!

The change is so big that I bet most people would feel scared

Photo of Dmitry Badiarov

I would like to express my profound gratitude to you for organising the smARTist® Telesummit, two years in a row! Thanks to pure luck, I found your website two and a half years ago. Since then, your wonderful book and the Telesummits have helped to make my career a lot easier to advance.

I wish I’d met you 10 years ago! The young artists coming to your telesummit are really lucky to be there now, not 10 years down the road.

It’s not only the 2008 Telesummit that helped, but the ensemble of resources: your book + the Telesummits. At last I can grasp the true spirit of my work. The change is so big that I bet most people would feel scared. I will not be surprised if everything takes a completely new and unexpected route: my medium, profile, direction, priorities…all of my career. So, thank you. And thanks to all of the speakers who came on board!

Yes, I'd like to get this material!

How do I know if this package is right for me?

Okay, let’s find out.

If you work in one or more of these mediums:
2-Dimensional, 3-Dimensional, Multi-media,
Digital, Musical, Performance

…then select which of the following applies to you:

You know what you love to do, but you have doubts about making a living doing it.

You have lots of ideas, but are not confident about where to begin and how to keep going.

You want to take your art career to the next level.

You toy with the idea of working as a full time artist, but aren’t sure where to start.

You work as a full time artist, but want new ideas and inspiration for putting your work in the world.

You know there are better ways to market your art, online and off, but aren’t sure which ones work best.

Did you check “Yes” 4 or more times?

Then, chances are the material in this package is a great match for your needs.

Did you check “No” 3 or more times?

Then, the material in this package is probably not the best fit.

I say “probably” because, even with the ‘no-s’, you may still want the latest information about how to sell your art online with Social Media; the best, most current tips about tax deductions for artists; and important Art Law information that will keep you out of trouble.

Yes, I'd like to get this material!

And, as if this wasn’t already enough, here is an amazing bonus!

  • BONUS #1
    A 13-Week Follow-up Program (a $495 value)

    Making sure you have the right information is only half my job: helping you put it into action is the other half.

    One week after the conference, I will send you the first of 13 follow-up newsletters to your inbox—one a week for 13 weeks. Exactly the number of sessions in the conference.

    This Follow-up Program gives you a systematized way to organize and to learn all the smARTist® material you will have just heard.

    Each newsletter makes sure you:

    • “Fan the Flames” — with a summary of a Panel Day, or one of the speakers
    • “Catch Fire” — with a specific action step, or two, so you can experience immediate success
    • “Feast Your Eyes” — on a piece of artwork selected from this year’s participants (maybe one of yours!)

Abundance is scooped from abundance
and still…
More Abundance Remains.

It’s a great value…

Photo of James Morreau

You have done a great job of bringing all of this information together and providing it to us in a nice, neat package. Plus it’s a GREAT VALUE, considering how much you get!

Yes, I'd like to get this material!

You covered so much so well that I consider it money well spent

Photo of Hughette May

My New Year's resolution was to learn how to market my own work, and the Telesummit was made to order for jump-starting me down that path. As an experienced artist — but a neophyte art marketer — the Telesummit introduced me to concentrated information in a condensed time period. It was an immersion experience, which is my favorite and most effective way to learn.

The Telesummit also gave me an opportunity to hear several art-marketing coaches speak in person, which helped me decide who I wanted to work with. I know that I will be listening to the 2008 presentations throughout the year, as particular needs arise. Knowing I have those recordings to hear again is a comfort. You covered so much so well that I consider it money well spent.

smARTist® Telesummit 2009
You Get… Basic Premium
Day 1: Panel Discussion:
Get Clear

5 Art career experts answer your questions on the best strategies for getting clear.
90 min MP3 audio worth $87
Yes! Yes!
Day 2: Panel Discussion:
Make A Plan

5 Art career experts answer your questions on the best strategies for marketing and selling your art.
90 min MP3 audio worth $87
Yes! Yes!
Day 3: Keynotes
Molly Gordon: Happy Together!
Peter Jason Riley: Watch your Wallet
Lucia Capacchione: Visioning Designing the Art Career of Your Dreams
3-45 min. MP3 audios worth $177 ($59 ea.)
Yes! Yes!
Day 4: Keynotes
Paul Dorrell: Corporate Collectors: The New Medicis
Shirley Williams: How to put together a winning portfolio
2-45 min. MP3 audios worth $118 ($59 ea.)
Yes! Yes!
Day 5: Keynotes
Leonard DuBoff: What Every Artist Needs to Know About the Law
Joan Stewart: 25 Easy Ways to Use Social Media to Sell Your Art
2-45 min. MP3 audios worth $118 ($59 ea.)
Yes! Yes!
Day 6: Keynotes
Mari Smith: The Power of Facebook
Nancy Marmolejo: So Much Social Networking, So Little Time
2-45 min. MP3 audios worth $118 ($59 ea.)
Yes! Yes!
Day 7: Keynotes
Alyson Stanfield: A Quick-and-Easy Marketing Plan
Guillermo Cuellar: How to Keep Grief, Illness, and Loss from Derailing Your Art
2-45 min. MP3 audios worth $118 ($59 ea.)
Yes! Yes!
Your Bonus #1
A unique, 13-Week Follow-Up Email Program

featuring one speaker per week to help you “breeze with ease” through all of this material!
Yes! Yes!
Your Bonus #2
Telesummit Transcripts - 262 pages!

All 13 sessions are immediately available to read, print, & highlight. So you can learn at your own pace. (worth $97)
  Yes!
Your Payment Options Basic Premium
Special Price
Single payment: Yes, I want immediate access
$823
$297
Click to get it
$989
$347
Click to get it
Payment Plan: Yes, I want the convenience of 2 equal payments 30 days apart for immediate access. 2 payments of
$148.50 ea.
Click to get it
2 payments of
$173.50 ea.
Click to get it
Ordering outside the USA? 1. Choose your payment option above; 2. This will take you to the order form page; 3. On that page click “PayPal” to process your payment

I was so afraid of spending the money...

I am absolutely LOVING the smARTist Telesummit 2008 program.
I was so afraid of spending the money with the economy declining,
(I am my only support) but I did it and I am just so pleased.
I am getting so many ideas as I listen to the lessons in my car and
at home until it all really sinks in. Thank you so much.
It was money really well spent!

Watch this Video made by Linda Richichi

She’s one of our smARTist® Alumni

Our 100% “Time Machine” Guarantee

If the Present and the Future of this material does not work for you, I’ll zip straight back to the Past and get your money to you.

If you aren't involved, excited, and getting more and more clear on how you are going to reach or exceed your art career ambitions, within 30 days, take a 100% refund, and walk away.

Guarantee #1

If you aren't involved, excited, and getting more and more clear on how you are going to reach or exceed your art career ambitions, take a 100% refund, and walk away.

From you: this will be on your honor.

From us: no conditions, no strings.

Guarantee #2

Within 30 days of your purchase, if you have not weaned yourself from ineffective habits and feel as if you are on your way to raising your professional profile, using what you learned, I’ll still give you a 100% refund. All I ask is that you respect one, reasonable request.

Show me how you've tried, what reasonable actions you've taken, and from whom you have asked for assistance. But I sincerely doubt this will happen. Instead, if you follow through on what you learn, I suspect you will be on your way to moving your art career up to the next level. You deserve no less.

Yes, I'd like to get this material!

The 2008 smARTist® Telesummit dramatically
changed my life in three ways:

Sandy Sandy
  • Increased my marketing knowledge tremendously. Now I have an abundance of marketing knowledge to help promote and sell my art! I've been implementing a lot of the Internet tips from Joan Stewart, Claudine Hellmuth and Alyson Stanfield and have increased traffic (2000 visits/day) to my websites.
  • Provided me with the tools and resources to increase my exposure. The smARTist® Telesummit has definitely given me great tools to take better advantage of publicity outlets and opportunities. For example, I’m now using a blog, a Squidoo lens, and YouTube to generate traffic to my websites.
  • Gave me the confidence and permission to "toot my own horn." I feel like I've just barely scratched the surface here. The resources provided by Ariane Goodwin and her line up of experts really fueled my fire, and will keep me going for a very long time…
    …at least until the next smARTist® Telesummit in 2009!

Any Success Starts Here:
Stepping Away From ‘Small’ And
Into The Infinity Of Your Vision

Ariane Goodwin

As always, I wish you continued creative flow,

Ariane's signature

P.S. If you need this course, and are hesitating, just remember the difference between hesitation and a decision is action. It’s pretty simple: if you don’t act, you run the risk of a career that puddles along. I know what it’s like to struggle from month to month. But I know from experience, that if we don't choose to act earlier rather than later, not much changes. This is your moment. It’s yours for the taking.

Yes, I'd like to get this material!

Questions?

I know that you need the right information to make a smart and heartfelt decision about moving your art career forward.

Ask me any question about the smARTist® Telesummit Package.

Be sure to whitelist email from
info@smartist-telesummit.com
so you are sure to get my reply.


Double-check your email so we can get back to you.

So we have an alternative way to connect with you.

This verification question ensures that the form is being submitted by a real person.